2011 Legislative Session: Third Session, 39th Parliament
HANSARD
________________________________________
The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.
The printed version remains the official version.
________________________________________
Official Report of
DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
(Hansard)
________________________________________
WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 2011
Afternoon Sitting
Volume 20, Number 13
Committee of Supply
ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF
JOBS, TOURISM AND INNOVATION
G. Gentner: Recently in an article in a local newspaper, the Delta Optimist, there's been discussion of a foreign trade zone perhaps even coming to a municipality near me. On February 22, 2011, the then Ministry of Tourism, Trade and Investment issued an RFP for a feasibility of a B.C. foreign trade zone program. I'm wondering how much has been earmarked for such a study and where I can find it line by line in, perhaps, the service plan. I didn't find it.
Hon. P. Bell: The contract for this particular project actually rests with the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure. But I can tell the member opposite that the contract amount was for $76,785, and the contract completion date is July 31 of 2011.
G. Gentner: Well, I have a request for proposal in my hand, Feasibility of a British Columbia Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ) Program, Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure and Ministry of Tourism, Trade and Investment. Maybe the minister can correct me, but this request for proposal was a joint venture by both ministries. Am I wrong to assume such?
Hon. P. Bell: We always work collaboratively with other ministries, and I'm happy to answer whatever questions, certainly, that I'm capable of answering relative to this issue.
G. Gentner: I'm intrigued by it all because why would it be issued in partnership along with the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure, which deals with freeways and the like, and yet this request for proposal is about opening up trade as a free or foreign trade zone?
Hon. P. Bell: I should also identify a new staff member that has joined me, Don White, who is an executive director in the trade, investment and innovation branch.
I think the answer to the member's question is reasonably simple. The Ministry of Transportation also has responsibility for ports. Foreign trade zones typically are developed in and around port areas, so it would be an area that would be collaboratively developed.
[ Page 6618 ]
G. Gentner: Now we're getting somewhere, because now we know that the foreign trade zone is coming to a port near you. I thank you for bringing that to our attention. It's very much important, if you understand what's happening in my community and in the member for Delta South's. We're seeing extreme development proposals hitting us in both ways.
Now, the request for proposal closed on March 10, 2011. Has there been a candidate chosen?
Hon. P. Bell: There has been a successful proponent. There were two proposals received, one from a company called InterVISTAS Consulting Group and the other from a company called CPCS Transcom Ltd., which was a Quebec-based company. The contract was awarded to the B.C.-based company, InterVISTAS.
G. Gentner: InterVISTAS — is that a company that is part of the greater Vancouver gateway committee?
Hon. P. Bell: No, they are, as I understand it from my staff, independent of that group.
G. Gentner: Has the provincial government been in discussions with the federal government relative to changing existing federal foreign trade zone programs?
Hon. P. Bell: I can assure the member opposite that since I've had responsibility for the portfolio, there have been no discussions between myself and the federal government, or staff members and the federal government, as I understand it, around foreign trade zones.
I can't assure the member opposite that at some point in the past there hasn't been some level of discussion around this, but it is an area that I personally find intriguing and one that I am eager to try and get more information on and what the benefits and challenges may be that would be associated with something of this nature.
G. Gentner: Intriguing indeed. Why would the province be encouraging a location-specific foreign trade zone in B.C. over a provincewide — now that the minister has admitted that it's going to be located by a port?
Hon. P. Bell: The contract that was issued was not specific to any given geographic location in the province. In fact, my understanding is that the federal government programs specifically exclude geographic locations for foreign trade zones. It's not an area that…. The three programs that I understand may be available through the federal government would not in any way identify a specific zone as a foreign trade zone.
G. Gentner: Yet regarding the requirements, in response, for the RFP, it specifically says that the study will analyze and make recommendations, including advantages and drawbacks of establishing a location-specific foreign trade zone in British Columbia. So is it not going to look at this? Is it or isn't it?
Hon. P. Bell: The answer is both. The contract allows for providing advice both on a specific location, if there was one geographically identified — or just the notion of a geographically identified area, wherever that might be — as well as a program that would involve no specific geographic locations but be available on a broader range. So the answer to the question is both.
G. Gentner: Obviously, the port is from the Kootenays all the way to Prince Rupert.
The consultant is expected to liaise with the steering committee, and that steering committee is the foreign trade zone coalition — this consortium. What does the province have and mean when it says "liaise"?
Hon. P. Bell: I should point out to the member opposite that foreign trade zones are often associated with airports as well as seaports. So, in fact, when the member said all the way from the Kootenays, I think he said, to…. I forget where his other location was. He's quite correct, actually. You could have a free trade zone around an airport, even in my home community of Prince George. That would be quite possible.
The purpose of having the contractor liaise with this group is simply information-sharing. They are individuals that have expertise when it comes to ports and how you might develop a foreign trade zone.
G. Gentner: Who or what entities make up this special foreign trade zone coalition steering committee?
Hon. P. Bell: I'm not sure whether this is a complete list or not, but I think it presents a flavour of the sorts of individuals that would be on this steering committee: Diane Gray, who is the president and CEO of CentrePort Canada; Claude Mungeau, who is the president and CEO of CN; David Miller, who is also at CN; Jane O'Hagan, who is the chief marketing officer for CP Rail; Michael Moore, president and CEO of Global Container Terminals; Lori Janson, who is also with Global Container Terminals; Bob Wilds, who is with the Greater Vancouver Gateway Council; Lloyd McCoomb, who is with the Greater Toronto Airports Authority; Karen Oldfield, who is with the Halifax Port Authority; Robin Silvester, who is with Port Metro Vancouver; Duncan Wilson of Port Metro Vancouver; Don Krusel, who is with the Prince Rupert Port Authority; Eric Waltz with TSI Terminal Systems Inc.; Larry Berg, who is the present CEO of Vancouver Airport Authority; and Barry Rempel, who is the president and CEO of the Winnipeg Airport Authority.
[ Page 6619 ]
G. Gentner: How can the government or its coalition partners assess the detriments of a foreign trade zone when the entities already support it?
Hon. P. Bell: The contractor has the responsibility to consult not just with this particular group of individuals but also with other groups of individuals. This is simply an analysis of whether or not there is value to moving forward on a more detailed level of work to determine if a foreign trade zone would be called for, and if so, if it should be a specific location or a non-described geographic location, perhaps something more industry-specific.
So it is an early piece of work that I think is important to do. The member opposite may oppose economic development initiatives and not be interested in creating jobs and wealth for the province. That is not the position of this minister or this government.
G. Gentner: And it's certainly not the position of the opposition. The opposition supports sustainable growth.
Now, when did the province begin its consultation with the federal government regarding the potential changes to the foreign trade zone? My understanding is, according to this proposal, we have customs and excise tax exemptions in two parts of Canada, but we're certainly looking at a change in that type of program. When did this discussion actually begin with the federal government?
Hon. P. Bell: I'm tempted to refer the member to the Hansard response that I provided him earlier, but I clearly said earlier that we've not engaged with the federal government at this point.
G. Gentner: Looking at the requirements and responses of the RFP, in its rationale for a foreign trade zone it states that the visiting foreign…. It's supported because "visiting foreign delegates and numerous port-related companies have commented on the lack of foreign trade zones in British Columbia."
I'm just wondering: can the minister name which companies have suggested to the government that we need a foreign trade zone?
Hon. P. Bell: As I think the member opposite knows, I have spent a fair bit of time travelling to China over the last three years or so, and I can assure the member that in some of the discussions I had there's an interest in part of Chinese industry to work with us collaboratively on a foreign trade zone.
I should also assure the member opposite that regardless of what it says, I am keenly interested in what benefits may be brought to British Columbians in the development of a foreign trade zone. Until I have the information fully explained to me about what both the benefits and challenges are, I would be unable to make a good decision on behalf of British Columbians in terms of whether we should move forward on this or not.
I am eager to see the results of the work that is going on, and if the results indicate that this has something that would be positive, then certainly I'll want more information in order to make a good decision.
G. Gentner: The current federal program includes the export distribution centres, the duty deferral programs, but in the proposal here it says, "there may be room for improvement within," which refers to the notion of changing the federal jurisdiction on foreign trade zones. How does a province see this change to benefit the province?
Hon. P. Bell: I'm in an awkward place here. Both the federal and provincial governments have responsibility for different policy and taxation levers. The question that we're asking of the contractor is: are there things within the realm of provincial responsibility that could be brought to bear to encourage investment in a foreign trade zone, and if so, what would be the advantages and disadvantages of a decision of that nature? Until we have that information, it would be impossible to know whether or not this is an economic strategy that we would want to follow, but it is information that I'm keenly interested in having.
G. Gentner: The jurisdiction of foreign trade zones comes under the purview of the federal government. So why is the province pushing this when the minister has admitted he has yet to converse with the federal government?
Hon. P. Bell: As is so often the case, the member opposite is wrong. The provincial government has many tools in its tool box that it can use to incent business activity. Whether you call it a foreign trade zone or anything, for that matter, is irrelevant. What the information is that we're looking for is how we build on the federal government programming that currently exists.
Part of the information that I would expect to acquire from this report also would be if there is a need to change some of the federal government policy in order to create something that does make sense for British Columbians, for high-paying jobs for families here in B.C. I would be interested in knowing that so I could make that presentation to the federal government.
G. Gentner: Maybe I missed it. Can the minister remind me when exactly this study, this report, will be available?
Hon. P. Bell: The report contract completion date is July 31, 2011.
[ Page 6620 ]
G. Gentner: So when will a copy be available to the opposition?
Hon. P. Bell: Once we have received the report and had an opportunity to review it, I'll be happy to provide the member opposite with a copy.
G. Gentner: Will that be a week or two after completion of the report and the minister's had it in his hands?
Hon. P. Bell: I'm not prepared to make a specific commitment around timing, but I will provide it at the earliest convenience, once I've had the opportunity. I don't know the size or scope of the report at this point in time, but certainly, it's something that I'd be more than prepared to share with the member.
G. Gentner: Exactly how much does the report cost again?
Hon. P. Bell: It's $76,785. I think I've provided that number already.
G. Gentner: Improving the existing foreign trade zone, according to the document, means developing an effective foreign trade zone model. Can the minister explain to me what is an effective foreign trade zone model?
Hon. P. Bell: I'm hoping to find that out via this report.
G. Gentner: It's really wonderful to know what direction the government knows it's going — putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.
"The value in enhancing" — I'm going according to the report — "mechanisms to avoid the costs of duties on manufacturing inputs that will be fully phased out by 2015." Can the minister elaborate what that means? Looking at the foreign trade zone models throughout the rest of the world, does that mean 100 percent foreign ownership in comparison to non-free-zone areas, and does it also mean a zero percent corporate tax for a certain period of years?
Hon. P. Bell: Maybe I'll just take a couple of additional seconds, if I may, on this answer. This report is intended to provide us with a preliminary view of how a foreign trade zone may work in British Columbia and if it is in the interest of British Columbians and British Columbia families to have something called a foreign trade zone.
Foreign trade zones vary hugely globally. In fact, to my understanding, there are well over 200 foreign trade zones in the United States. I didn't know that prior to having a bit of a briefing on that, so it was interesting to me. I knew of foreign trade zones or had heard of foreign trade zones in China, and you hear about them having some success in terms of economic development for different regions in China.
But this report is a preliminary report to provide us with some thoughts on what it is that we might do as a province to enhance the current federal government regulation and how that could work and if — or if not — it would provide economic benefits.
So the depth of questions that the member is asking I actually think at this point we don't have the answers to, because we don't have the report. I'm not even convinced that the report will answer all of the questions the member is asking.
The member just referred to a potential rule around foreign ownership in foreign trade zones. That is a question, clearly, that you would want to ask. What level of foreign ownership would you allow?
I know the member opposes NAFTA and opposes free trade, and we've heard that on many occasions in the House. But we actually embrace the notion of other countries investing in British Columbia. We'd like to be able to invest and have our British Columbia entrepreneurs invest in other jurisdictions as well.
We're not a closed economy. We're an open trading economy. It's something that we clearly differ on. I understand that. The member opposite doesn't share that view. But it is a point of difference.
To answer all those questions, we expect the report on a very early level to start to give us some information, but even this report I don't expect would put us in a position that would allow us to really fully understand all the details around what a B.C.-made foreign trade zone might look like.
The one thing I know is that foreign trade zones are hugely different, depending on what jurisdiction you're in. Each one is crafted in a way that I suppose meets the needs of the local community, or one would hope that is the case. Should British Columbia decide to move forward on foreign trade zones, we would clearly want to develop one that would meet the needs of British Columbia families.
G. Gentner: The minister obviously is suggesting that the foreign trade zone does not necessarily exclude 100 percent foreign ownership, zero percent corporate taxes, unrestricted repatriation of capital and profits, zero percent import or re-export duties or zero percent personal income tax, no currency restrictions, no labour restrictions or regulations on the hiring of foreign employees, the facility to mortgage owned premises on leased lands, or a company established in a free zone that has built its own facility may mortgage its premises to any bank.
So I get it that the minister is looking at all these possibilities. But before I leave this, since the government is indulging in this effort, can the minister explain to the House exactly how a foreign trade zone is going to benefit the province of British Columbia?
[ Page 6621 ]
Hon. P. Bell: We won't be restricting alien aircraft from landing in foreign trade zones too, and I know that's a concern of the member opposite. You know, the member just read out a whole realm of things, none of which I've said.
Hansard will duly show that he continues to fabricate at a level beyond the imagination of most members of this House and appears to be very good at that constant fabrication. However, the record will speak for itself, and we'll allow him to do that, because I haven't suggested any of those things.
In fact, what I have suggested is that we're eager to create a program, if it makes sense for British Columbians, that can work collectively for British Columbian families. I don't know what that looks like today. I won't know that until I've seen this report, and we've done much more work on it.
G. Gentner: Just a few remaining parts here under the proposal requirements. I'm quoting the documentation. "The proponent may identify additional research elements it believes would be necessary to achieve the objective of evaluating the benefits of the establishment of foreign trade zones in Canada or British Columbia and for consideration by the sponsoring ministries."
Can the minister explain to me what additional research will be needed if the proponents need greater evaluation in the benefits of the estimation of the foreign trade zones? Who or what agency will receive additional research, will be given the capacity to show the detriment of establishing the foreign trade zone in British Columbia?
We know where this study's going. It's foisted upon us by the proponents, but where are the safeguards and the counter-perspective in all this?
We know what the terms of reference are. It clearly shows, looking at…. The government is certainly in conjunction with the view that there is a need for a foreign trade zone. Where are the safeguards built in this, and does that mean there will be additional money to search that out?
Hon. P. Bell: This report is something that we asked for. Now, I know the member opposite may not want any information on what good economic development strategies might look like, and that appears to me to be what the member opposite is suggesting.
I am actually interested in building the economy of British Columbia and trying to create jobs and value for families and making sure we have the fiscal resources necessary to support important social programs like health care, education and other programs that are critical to all of our collective constituents.
This $76,785 report will not be the only level of information that's required in order to make decisions around whether a foreign trade zone might or might not make sense. If it does, if it should or should not be geographically specific or if it should be available on a broader-ranging basis and how that might be delivered…. There will be lots of time for information on foreign trade zones.
Clearly, the member opposite does not want that information, for whatever reason, doesn't want to know whether or not foreign trade zones should be considered. That is his choice. It is not my choice.
G. Gentner: We know what deregulation means. It seems to be quite the hollow onion when you look at it. You can deregulate, you can deregulate, and you can deregulate. We saw the deregulation and what happened when we sold the B.C. Rail and the derailment on the Squamish because of that lack of oversight.
We know that in 2007 the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure took members of the B.C. Rail Co., which was being decommissioned to Dubai, to look at a free trade zone. Consequently, the vice-president of Dubai port later became the CEO and president of Global Container Terminals in south Delta.
So we have some grave concerns about this. It seems to me that the minister doesn't really know where they're going with this, but they've certainly directed it towards more deregulation and a lack of labour oversight relative to jobs. We have grave concerns.
That's about where I'm going with this. I will give it to the member for Delta South, who may have other questions on the matter.









