2010 Legislative Session: Second Session, 39th Parliament

HOUSE BLUES
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This is a DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY of debate in one sitting of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. This transcript is subject to corrections, and will be replaced by the final, official Hansard report. Use of this transcript, other than in the legislative precinct, is not protected by parliamentary privilege, and public attribution of any of the debate as transcribed here could entail legal liability.
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DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(HANSARD)
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HOUSE BLUES

THURSDAY, APRIL 22, 2010

Afternoon Sitting

G. Gentner: On this side I'll take Jack Layton any day before their Stephen Harper — without question. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

I'm somewhat a little handicapped because I'm following the riveting oratorical skills of the member opposite. It was very awesome how he was able to deliver it, but I do have to talk briefly about what the Minister of Environment didn't tell us and why it should be referred. And we'll talk about the motion. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

It's the fact the HST is going to affect tourism-related industries — tourism-related industries that are part of his ministry itself. You know, campgrounds will be impacted. We're going to be looking at American competition. I mean, why would Americans cross the border and come to our B.C. parks with an HST attached? It doesn't make sense. Our dollar's at par. It's at parity. It's going up. By July 1 we're going to have a Canadian dollar probably $1.04, $1.10, and tack on the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Why wouldn't the minister want to refer this to a committee and get a better understanding of not only what the people are saying but the real economics of small towns — small towns that rely on tourism, rely on camping, RV campgrounds, RV parks, fishing charters? Why wouldn't he want to talk to those people who could possibly lose their jobs because of the impact of the HST? That's due diligence. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

I mean, the minister talks about the stalling tactic, but you know, democracy sometimes is exhaustive. Isn't that what we're supposed to do — it's participatory democracy: ask people? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

An Hon. Member: Tell them the truth. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

G. Gentner: Tell them the truth? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

You know, we're talking about increases on perhaps propane, and how is that going to impact the camper? And the minister talked about his constituency, that of Chilliwack, and of course, we know that perhaps animal feed will be impacted as well by the HST. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

You know, it's interesting that this government is unwilling to consult, to confer with the people of British Columbia, and that is why I support this motion. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

[1520]

The motion made by the House Leader of the opposition states quite emphatically that "the subject matter be forwarded to the select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services and further that the committee be empowered to invite witnesses to appear before
emphatically that "the subject matter be forwarded to the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services and further that the committee be empowered to invite witnesses to appear before it to assist in its deliberation." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

That makes perfect sense. What's wrong with a heart-to-heart? What's wrong with a true dialogue? I mean, we hear on the other side how we have all this misinformation. Well, okay, let's clear the air. Let's sit down. Let's chew the fat with the people of British Columbia. Let's sit down. That's what this motion is saying. But, no, it's a stall. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

You know, this is kind of what Archie Bunker told Edith: "Stifle yourself." That's the attitude over there. That's why they don't want to support this referral motion. You know, "Stifle yourself, voters. You made a big mistake. We told you one thing before the election, but we've all of a sudden changed our minds. Zip your lips. Sit down. We don't want to hear from you. We know best." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

This is what this motion is allowing the government to do. Instead of telling people, "Sit down. You don't know what you're talking about," here's an opportunity for this government to go around the province and listen to the people of British Columbia. That's what this motion is all about. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Frankly, I just don't understand the reluctance of this government to deal with an opportunity to do a heart-to-heart with the people of British Columbia. Boy, would they eliminate the type of fervour, almost hysteria right now, relative to what they've created with the HST, if they would just sit down and have a discussion with the people of British Columbia. That's what this motion is all about, but they don't get it. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

I have to talk briefly about…. Interesting that yesterday the Minister Responsible for Health Services stood up and enlightened us a little bit about the HST. He was talking about the discussion or the anger against his government, and I quote the minister. Yesterday afternoon, in fact, he said: "Now, you could say, I suppose, that this was a flip-flop or that they changed their position or they completely reversed direction — all the kinds of things that I'm hearing right now about, apparently, our government and our position on the HST." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

A flip-flop. He admitted there's a flip-flop, but he goes on to say: "So let the record be clear for this member. I have been pushing a harmonized sales tax since I first got elected in 2001." That's what the Minister of Health Services said. He admitted that he's the father of the HST in British Columbia. The Minister of Health Services stood here right across and said that it was his idea way back in 2001. We haven't heard one pip from this side about it until, miraculously, it occurred two days after the election. A little discussion started to happen there. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

He goes on to say: "I remember talking to Minister Gary Collins at the time and trying to encourage the minister at that time to consider a merger of the taxes, because I always felt that this was going to be good for the economy." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

I mean, the minister was already talking to the Minister of Finance way back in 2001 for heaven's sake. It was his idea. He's been lobbying for it since 2001, until it was actually implemented. Could you imagine that? And yet there's no record at all in the House that he is the father of the B.C. HST — the member from Cloverdale. That's amazing. You know, it's like a visionary. He's taking all the credit for the HST. What leadership — truly leadership. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

I find it remarkable that, in fact, if we refer to a committee that goes amongst the province, this could be the B.C. Liberal leadership tour. They'll have an opportunity to go around and explain to everybody — the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Health Services, who's got this vision. It's amazing. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

[1525]

Here's a minister who in 2000 was running around the recall campaign in Cloverdale and all the rest of it, and he had a vision way back then to squeeze the consumers, way back in 2001. But he didn't come clean. No. No, Madam Speaker. So that is why — that's one reason why and he had a vision way back then to squeeze the consumers, way back in 2001, but he didn't come clean. No, no, Madam Speaker. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

That's one reason why we need to refer this to the Standing Committee of Finance and Government Services — to clear the air so that we can ask the Minister of Health Services and other ministers perhaps. Maybe we can call them, subpoena them and get them on the record, and find out when this whole nonsense started, because we have the member, the minister from the Ministry of Health, who says that it's his idea, that it's been around since 2001. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

You know, at first I had a little difficulty, I have to admit, hon. Speaker, in actually supporting this motion, because I wasn't sure what the Opposition House Leader was going to pull off here. We've seen when they've created these types of committees before, the government, and it's kind of a dog-and-pony show. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Remember the Conversation on Health, this bandwagon that went all around the province? They actually went over to Europe. They told everybody: "This is the Conversation on Health, the Premier's tour, and we're going to consult with people." They didn't consult with anybody. They consulted with their own little stakeholders, and lo and behold, when they got the answer, they didn't like the answer. What did they do? They quashed it. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

In fact, if you look in the archives, the archives people have been told: "You've got to remove it from the record now." It's amazing. They want to get rid of it. This is the type of government…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to talk about liberalism. Oh, here's a concept. Let's talk about what liberalism really means. I want to talk about the pragmatism, the 20th century liberal John Dewey. He asserted that complete democracy was to be obtained not just by extending voting rights but also by ensuring that there exists a fully formed public opinion. That's true liberalism, accomplished by effective communication amongst citizens, experts and politicians, with the latter being accountable for the policies they adopt. That's the 20th century of John Dewey. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

If you look at some of the American postal stamps, they've got his photo there. He's seen as one of the fathers of modern liberalism. Let me quote what he had to say: [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

"Democracy is a way of personal life controlled not merely by faith in human nature in general but by faith in the capacity of human beings for intelligent judgment and action if proper conditions are furnished…I acquired" — the faith in human nature — "from my surroundings as far as those surroundings were animated by the democratic spirit.

"For what is the faith of democracy in the role of consultation, of conference, of persuasion, of discussion, in the formation of public opinion, which in the long run is self-corrective, except faith in the capacity of the intelligence of the common man to respond with common sense to the free play of facts and ideas which are secured by effective guarantees of free inquiry, free assembly and free communication?"

Free assembly, free inquiry, free communication. I bring it to the House because obviously the members opposite are Liberals in name only. They're nothing less…. I mean, they're not liberals. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

I'm a social democrat, and we do adopt many of the liberal perspectives — small-l liberal. But when you look at what democracy, in the liberal eyes, is supposed to be, it's consultation. That is called direct democracy, and that is what this motion is all about. But the opposite side, we heard before…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

In fact, they refer to the work in this House as busy work. Do you remember that, hon. Speaker? I'm sure you do. It was busy work. We were told it was busy…. "Oh, we don't have to come in the fall." I think it was a fall session — a couple of weeks. What an inconvenience that was going to be. "Let's brush it off." I think of the House Leader on the opposite side called it busy work. "No, no, no, we don't want to do that." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

I'm surprised that the government even wants to…. I mean, I know they want to get on with it. They want to get out of here. But I'm surprised they don't want to filibuster so that they can stay in this House all weekend and don't have to face their constituents back home this weekend. I mean, it must be devastating there. Why wouldn't they want to have…? Why wouldn't they want to consult the people? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

[1530]

Talk about getting the monkey off your back. What an opportunity — to adopt this motion and confer and talk to the people of British Columbia. You'd look like heroes. But you know, you've got to slink and slither under some stone and try and deny — deny that [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

What an opportunity to adopt this motion and confer and talk to the people of British Columbia. You'd look like heroes. But you're going to slink and slither under some stone and try and deny that this is going to be a harmful sales tax. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Deputy Speaker: Member, you need the address the chamber with parliamentary language. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

G. Gentner: Thank you, hon. Speaker. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Let me address the parliamentary committees. They're appointed by the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia to undertake business on behalf of the assembly. That's their job, and that's the whole notion of this motion. Committees are comprised of Members of the Legislative Assembly. Committees derive their powers from the House and must report their findings back to the House. Hon. Speaker, what's wrong with that? That's what this motion is all about. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Maybe it's called busywork by some, but it's to go out there in the province — and it's a little populous; I know — to go to Fort St. John, to go to the Stikine, to go to the suburbs of the Lower Mainland, to go up Island, to go to the Kootenays and sit down, break bread, talk, find out what people are thinking and even have a discourse and correct some of the so-called misinformation. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Committees consider only those matters that are referred to them by the Leg., so the motion is directive. It's telling the committee to go out there specifically with the idea to find and search the information, to hear the opinions, to collate it, to bring it together and to bring it back. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

[C. Trevena in the chair.]

Within the terms of reference each committee, and this committee, is afforded total independence with its deliberations. There you go. What an opportunity to go arm's length and talk to the people of British Columbia — to talk, to consult, to confer with the people of British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

I thought that's why we were here. That's what I thought we were all about — not to lock us up here in the chambers and turn our back on what the people of British Columbia are most upset about. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

The committee system allows for a detailed examination of matters in a manner that would not be possible in the larger House. Okay, hon. Speaker. That is the purpose of the committee. It's to get the detail, to get the meat, to get the information, to take the politics out of it, to get out there. At times the committee system also allows members of the public to have direct input into the parliamentary process by making written submissions and attending public hearings. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Many of us were on city councils for years, and there were painstaking evenings. We were up till midnight. I'm sure the member for Delta South will concur on that one. We went many evenings late into the night to hear what people had to say. In many ways, I have to tell you that municipal government is far more participatory and direct democratic than what we find in the so-called parliamentary system here today. I think that's a shame. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

But here's an opportunity with this motion. You know, it's also information where we can decipher what the people are saying. According to the mandate of this committee, it can travel within British Columbia to obtain all the evidence. This committee would be empowered by the motion which is tabled in the Legislature. The motion calls for a committee to investigate this matter, and it's the Legislative Assembly that votes on the motion. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

The substance of the motion becomes the committee's terms of reference. The terms of reference outlines the tasks given to the committee and also permits the committee to meet, to call witnesses, to retain personnel as required. The terms of reference may also specify that the committee must report back to the Legislature within a given time period. Certainly we can do that. We don't have to stall. We can somewhat not necessarily expedite, but I think we can be reasonable in the reporting-back structure. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

How more democratic can it be but to support this motion? What a gift, to use the parliamentary committee system that allows for a more detailed examination of matters that would not be possible in a larger, more formal environment of this House. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

[1535]

Committees allow members of the public to have direct input with public hearings, and parliamentary committees may travel throughout B.C. In recent years committees have investigated a wide amount…. We've investigated through the committee system earthquake preparedness, agriculture and food policy, lumber manufacturing, the Nisga'a agreement-in-principle. It was committees may travel throughout B.C. In recent years, committees have investigated a wide amount. We've investigated through the committee system earthquake preparedness, agriculture and food policy, lumber manufacturing. The Nisga'a agreement-in-principle was painstakingly long, but it began in a committee that went out there and did it right. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Madam Speaker, you know about the fish farm committee — the standing committee on investigation. That was another one that went out there and got the information. It was an all-party decision. It was an all-party meeting. They all didn't agree, but they found the information, and the result of it.... The government did not necessarily act, and now we're in a mess today, I believe, relative to the federal government's Hickson decision and the Cohen inquest. But I'm getting off-topic. I'm just giving an example of what a committee can do. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

"At the end of its deliberations, a committee must report its observations and recommendations to the Legislative Assembly. The observations contained in a report often refer to evidence collected during the public hearing process. The committee reports contain recommendations" — recommendations for action. Who knows, maybe this parliament of ours can work together through the committee system. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

"Committees in British Columbia do not have the authority to directly alter legislation or cause the government to take any specific action." That's the good thing about it. I mean, the government is government, but it can receive advice from the people vis-à-vis through the committee — finance and government service. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

The committee it's recommended to is the Finance and Government Services Committee. The chair, the convener, is the member for Chilliwack. Why wouldn't the member for Chilliwack...? He stood up here just quite recently and said he's going to vote against it, when he's the convener of the committee that can go out there and search out there, find out all the information out. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Or Kelowna–Lake Country — there we go. He's on the committee. He could tell his constituents that instead of hiding this weekend from all the fervour, he could sit on a committee and say: "I'll meet with you, and I'll show you some leadership, and we'll invite you in for coffee and find out what you have to say." The member for Kelowna–Lake Country has that ability right now to do it — right now. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

He could vote for this motion and get involved with participatory democracy and invite insightfulness from the people of Kelowna and the people from all over the Okanagan, but will he use that advantage? Will he use his position on that committee? No. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Or the MLA for Comox Valley, another member. Huge opportunity to strike up the band in his community and find out what's going on. Same with the members for Abbotsford South, Nechako Lakes, North Vancouver–Seymour. They sit on this committee too. What an opportunity to discuss, to confer with the people of British Columbia. I ask them to reconsider their position. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

You know, hon. Speaker, to consult is a matter.... There's a little tactfulness in all of it, but I believe Edward Kennedy said that "the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die." You know, I wish that's what this government would employ, because that is what consultation is all about. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

We know at the public hearing process.... We have the public Utilities Commission. It has public hearings. It initiates and examines applications. The commission counsellor has staff, has sequences and procedures followed by hearings. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

It's part of our DNA, our culture. It's already in place. We've seen alternate dispute resolutions. We see the first step, order and notice of public hearings, availability of the applications, interventions, record of proceedings. It's part of our tradition. Why is this government denying this opportunity? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

There are so many different types of public hearings. We can see what happened with negotiated settlement processes, the proper locations, orders, notices of public hearings, information requests. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

[1540]

I just don't, frankly, understand why this group across the way is unwilling to consult with bike owners and stakeholders of the province of B.C. You know, in my community, we have something wonderful. It's called a Tour de Delta. This is a bike race across the way is unwilling to consult with bike owners and stakeholders of the province of B.C. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

You know, in my community, we have something wonderful. It's called the Tour de Delta. This is a bike race that's been around for quite a while now. It came out of the Tour de White Rock. I think even Victoria had something with a bike race downtown. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Young kids are involved in biking. They are enthused about it. Nevertheless. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Where's the consultation there? Where is the consultation with the restaurant associations or the realtors? That's what the opportunity of this motion is, you know. Where is the opportunity to actually sit down? Maybe you should sit down and talk to the Vancouver Canucks. We know the HST is going to hit them after July 1. I know they did well last night, and we're all hopeful they're going to go all the way. Thank heavens the Stanley Cup final in Vancouver will be finished before the HST is in place, before July 1 this year. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

But what about next year? Why aren't we talking to hockey teams, the hockey moms and dads, or the Prince George Cougars, the Kootenay Ice? Here's an opportunity. This government can network with the Vancouver Club, the Arbutus Club, the Terminal City Club. Their memberships are going to be impacted. Boy, what an opportunity that would be. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Bus fares — what about the bus riders? They hear it's going to be incorporated in their fares somehow. But, you know, here's an opportunity to go out there in the ether in the province and describe to everybody what's actually going on rather than spending perhaps millions of dollars on a propaganda machine. That's what we're going to see. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

That is what this motion allows you to do — to go out into the province of British Columbia and talk to the people, have a cup of coffee and find out what's going on and what they think. Coffee's going to go up. Yeah, well, that's true, but nevertheless maybe over a cup of java, we can talk about what the implications are. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Golf fees. Let's get on the golf courses and talk to the golfers this summer before they decide to go stateside and hit a ball somewhere in Washington State because the fees are cheaper, and there's no tax. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Taxis are going up. Boy, there's another one we should talk to, but don't worry about that. Let's not talk to taxi associations or taxi drivers because — you know what? — they're the biggest messenger in the province. You know what they're going to say to the rest of the people of B.C. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Why don't we talk to the barbers, the beauticians? Why don't we talk to them? That's what this opportunity is. But I know the minister doesn't…. The minister should be worried because he's going to need a haircut some day. What's your barber going to say, hon. Speaker? It will be a bad hair day. July 1 is a bad hair day in the province of British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Well, we can get into the Beatles revival again, but we won't. The fact that people will be putting bowls on their head to cut their hair because they can't afford the cost of a barber anymore. Unbelievable. Maybe we'll see the HAIR musical revival coming, and we'll all be wearing beads and sandals — heaven forbid. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Why aren't you talking to the naturopaths? Why don't you talk to the dieticians and see how the supplements are going to affect them? Here's an opportunity. If you vote for this motion, you'll be able to talk to stakeholders, and that's what we're supposed to do. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Home maintenance or how about home renovations? Here's an opportunity to get out there and talk to Shell Busey. What an opportunity that would be — get out and talk to Shell. I know you listen to the home improvement show every Sunday morning. Nevertheless, I'm sure Shell could tell you what's going on out there and how it's going to impact it. You know, he could give you a few little tips maybe on how to do some drywall or something over there. I don't know, but what an opportunity. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Concert tickets. I like concert tickets, and I'm looking at what's coming up this summer. I'm just wondering if I'm going to be able and a lot of my friends are going to be able to afford it anymore. Maybe we should sit down and get an opportunity to go talk to some rock stars, some pop, hip hop guys. Go and consult with them. How is it going to affect their situation? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

[1545]

Firefighters, smoke detectors — why don't we talk to them? I hear we're getting rid of the ICE fund, the clean energy fund. Oh, we're not getting rid of it. Yes, we're going to suspend talk to them? I hear we're getting rid of the ICE fund — you know, the independent clean energy fund. Oh, we're not getting rid of it. Yes, we're going to suspend the fund, slowly drain it and trickle it away. There's another one. Why don't we talk to them? After all, solar power is going to be impacted now. Why don't we talk about the real alternate energy needs out there? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Here's an opportunity. By supporting this motion, we can get out in the province and talk to anybody we want. If you go back to some of the debates, what was said in Hansard years ago, I just want to leave you with this thought.... [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Interjections.

Deputy Speaker: One moment, Member. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Members.

G. Gentner: Hon. Speaker, the current Minister of Finance said the following: "You know, at the end of the day, it's not government's money; it's the taxpayers' money. It's the people that are working eight and nine hours a day, that are struggling to raise their families, feed their children, attend their local parent advisory committee meetings, be involved in the community, coach soccer. Those are the people that are making the contribution, and the work they do and the taxes they pay are something that we have to treat with the utmost respect." March 7, 2005. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

I leave you with this notion, hon. Speaker. Why doesn't this philosophy hold up today? Because it's a massive tax grab. Why is it that the government doesn't welcome this motion and hit the trail and find out what the people of British Columbia are really saying about the HST? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]